Transcript Disclaimer - May contain the occasional confusing, inaccurate, or unintentionally funny transcription moment. It’s all part of the show.

Lena: Everybody has their own version of Epic. For Rob, it’s been a 250-mile race through the Arizona desert. For Brent, it’s the Grand Canyon rim to rim to rim in a single day. Today on Midlife Circus, Brent and Rob unpack why big challenges matter in midlife and the breakthrough that waits on the other side. Before we begin, check out the “Message the Show” feature in your podcast player. It’s a simple way to reach us, share feedback, or say hello. And remember to follow Midlife Circus on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen, and join us in the Midlife Circus community in Substack. Let’s dive into Find Your Epic, why big challenges matter in midlife.

Brent: Rob, you’ve done things that most people would immediately say, why in the world would you do that? So let’s just start right there. When you signed up for some of these events like competing in an Ironman, Leadville 100 mountain bike race, Leadville 100 running race, Cocodona 250, which for those that don’t know, that’s a 250-mile race on foot. What did you believe you were really chasing?

Rob: That’s a great question. I’ve had a tendency, Brent, just to jump into the deep end with a lot of these things. And it started with a question of, I wonder if I could do that. I wonder if it’s possible for me to actually be able to go and do this thing. So for the first big event that I ever did was the Leadville 100 mountain bike race. And just happenstance came across the race when it was happening in Colorado. And didn’t know anything about it. Just saw bike racers. I’m like, what’s going on? We got stopped in traffic as they were crossing a road and then researched what this race was. And Lance Armstrong was doing this race. I’m like, wow, you can actually race with Lance Armstrong as an amateur? That’s pretty cool. And this was when he was at his peak. And so it was like, I could race Lance Armstrong. That’d be a pretty fun thing to be able to tell people I did. I wonder if I could go and do that. And that started the spiral of events for me to sign up for these kind of crazy, stupid activities on a regular basis. And one of the neat things when you do one of these big events, you get a belt buckle. So some of these events, it’s not just a finisher medal, it’s this nice silver big belt buckle like you would win if you won a rodeo event. And I have a couple of them now and I wear them from time to time, which I get excited about wearing them. I’m proud of the fact I completed them. And for early on, it was, can I do it? And I get a really cool belt buckle when I get done that I could show off the fact I finished this thing.

Brent: So, those of you that don’t know Rob like I know, this is how easily excitable he is. He gets excited for a belt buckle. A belt buckle, yes.

Rob: Well, it’s silver and gold. It’s fancy. Some of them are. They’re fancy, yes, but a belt buckle, the simplest things.

Brent: I love it. So that’s what we’re going to talk about today. And I want everybody to know this episode is not about doing these big, crazy athletic performances. Yes, we’re going to talk about them because we’ve both done some of those, but it’s more about the identity, the transformation, the role of taking on big challenges in midlife. And why do some people feel called to test themselves? What are they looking for? What changes on the other side of an experience like that? So, as we think about our takeaways for today, is we call it epic. And everybody has a different version of epic, things that they take on. So we’re going to talk about different epic challenges that people take on, whether it’s something to do with their work, whether it’s starting a new business, whether it’s an athletic endeavor, traveling to a far-off place, something that might challenge you. And we think there’s a lot of growth that comes with it. So we’re going to spend our time talking about what is everybody’s version of Epic, and more importantly, why is that important to do in midlife? So, to start things off, we’re going to actually go back, Rob, and talk about a little bit of these athletic events because you’ve got this crazy gene inside of you and some of the things that you choose to do. And when you look back at the events, so for those that aren’t familiar, Leadville 100, so those are either bike races or running races. They’re at 10,000 feet. So in Leadville, Colorado, they’re really, really difficult. Well known in the endurance athlete circuit. There’s the Ironman’s, which for those that don’t know it, you’re swimming just over two miles, you’re biking about 125 miles. 112. 112, sorry. And then you’ve got the Cocodona 250. So you’ve done some of these big events. The key question that I have, Rob, and that’s been a big part of your epic. What do they give you that ordinary life does not? Is it adventure? Is it control? Is it suffering? Is it meaning, pride, perspective, or is it something else? Because it’s very foreign to a lot of people. Let’s pick Leadville 100 as an example, because I was pretty close to you and helps in support of you when you did the run a couple of years ago. Maybe you can talk about that experience and why you chose to take it on, and what did it really give you that ordinary day-to-day life doesn’t.

Rob: When I started doing this, I was in a job at the time that wasn’t very difficult. In fact, I’d taken a step back in role and responsibility, quite a significant step back in role and responsibility. So the stimulus or the challenge that work wasn’t there for me. It was actually easy to do the work and actually excel at doing the work. And I’m an individual that thrives in challenge. I actually like being challenged. I seek out challenge, whether it be physical or mental challenge. I like that environment. As unhealthy as that can be at times, I kind of like that environment. And the first Leadville that I did was I wonder if I could do that. And it was the challenge of all those things you mentioned, Brent. It was the challenge of the unknown, never having pushed myself or my body that far, that it’s really unknown how I’m going to react, how I’m going to feel. Could I ever go and do this? The adventure of trying to figure it out. Then there was the research side of it and the mental stimulus of calorie intake and nutrition and hydration and training volume and trying to figure out the mechanics of all of that. So the mental stimulus of doing all of those things. I would say early on, it was all of those factors wrapped into it. So it was the mental challenge of trying to figure it out, the adventure of actually being in the moment, doing it, and not having a clue how I was going to react to what was going to happen, and the challenge of the unknown because I wasn’t getting challenged elsewhere in my life. That’s absolutely how it started.

Brent: I was your crew chief for the Leadville 100 run. And you go back to that, the amount of organization that it takes to actually do that run is so intense. And you worked on it for several months leading up to it. You built binders for a couple of us that were supporting you throughout the event. One thing that I think about with doing something epic is you learn something from it. So maybe you knew that the challenge of ordinary life wasn’t there. So you’re like, hey, I could try to do some of these events. Maybe you can take us through the actual journey of doing it, but also as you reflect backwards, because that was a few years ago. Like, what was it that you took away from it? Or did you have any moments of breakthrough as you were doing it?

Rob: So a couple of things. As these events started, as I wonder if I could do it, and I needed to break up the monotony of the work, even though I had been moving into more difficult roles and more stressful roles, the reason for signing up for these things changed a little bit. And it was not only I didn’t need the mental stimulus or the mental challenge, it was more of the I needed to just continue to push myself physically because work was so mentally demanding. And so signing up for the Leadville run, I was in a very stressful job. And having something as a little bit of a release for that. So it evolved on me a little bit as I was getting ready for signing up for Leadville. And it was a two-year process to doing it because the first year COVID hit and they canceled it. So I had been training. COVID hits, they cancel Leadville. I have a whole year to keep training for this thing, which blessing and a curse. You kind of stop running as much because you don’t have a race coming up, and then you got to rebuild. And for me at that time, it was I needed a release and a place where I could kind of veg out. And we’ve talked about on this podcast a little bit before is being outside on a trail is my happy place, whether it be mountain biking, hiking, walking the dog, or going for a run. I find a lot of relief in doing that. So it was a place for my mental clarity. I got more mentally clear when I’m outside doing something physical. And so signing up for Leadville was a challenge. Can I do this? Well, I’m in a stressful job. And I need this level of release to be successful and competent at the work that I was doing. And so that’s where Leadville was a little bit different than the first iteration when I was on the mountain bike to run. It was more, I’m stressed, I need a release, and doing something like this can give me that release. Now, yes, the mental stimulus came in. I created like, I don’t know, was it a 20-page binder that I had for you that was color-coded and tabbed, all the stuff about what might happen during the race. And I think the first sentence in the binder was read it and throw it away, because who knows what’s going to happen when we actually get out there. And there’s a sense of unknown when you’re out doing these things that until you test yourself and figure out what the limits are, which I think every epic, no matter whether it be physical, mental epics that we’re going to talk about, until you get out and do it, there’s so much unknown. You don’t know what’s going to happen because of it. And so at that Leadville, there was a lot of unknown, never having run that distance before, what my life was going to be like doing it. I had a great group of friends that were out there helping me with it. Like you came out and I had a bunch of other people that joined me during sections of the run. That was really exciting and a whole different environment to be in. Unlike everything I had done before, it was completely solo. This is one where I get to actually go out and do it with some friends. And I need other people to help me. I couldn’t get it, I couldn’t do it on my own. So I had to have other people out there doing it with me. And I would say that that event had one of the, up until that point, one of the biggest mental breakthrough moments that I’ve experienced in my life. And it was really cool. And it happened between mile 40 and mile 60 during the race. And up until mile 40, I had been suffering with some hip and knee issues. I stepped in a hole early on in the race and I was limping and hobbling, walking for a lot more sections than I wanted to. And I came into a rest area, an aid station, Brent, and I was in tears, not knowing if I was going to be able to finish. And I was forecasting out, you know, oh my gosh, it’s 40 miles into this hundred-mile race. I’m already in so much pain I could barely walk. I don’t know that I’m going to be able to finish this thing. And what you didn’t know at the time, and I want your perspective on that moment there, what you didn’t know at the time was about a mile before that aid station where I came in in tears to see you, someone made a comment on the side of the trail. And it was a gentleman, and I wish I could find this person. If you’re listening to the podcast and you’re the person that said that, I thank you. Because the only reason why I finished is because of you. He made a comment: you can’t control the past, you can’t control the future. All you can control right now is the step you take going forward. Just keep moving forward, just keep stepping forward, just keep stepping forward. That’s what’s in your control. And I did just that. And he said it, but I didn’t believe it. I just said, yeah, whatever, and kept moving. Got into the aid station, was pretty broken down there, knowing that I have another 60 miles to finish this thing. And I was broken down because of the commitment over a two and a half year period of time to try and accomplish it. It was late nights, it was early mornings, it was time away from my spouse, it was time not doing fun stuff with friends. I had friends that had come into town to come and support me and were spending money to join me on this thing. And I felt like I was letting everybody down, not just myself, but all the other people around me. And so there was this pressure that I had built up around this thing. And I didn’t know if I was going to be able to finish. And I’m sitting in the chair, changing my shoes and socks, getting ready to go back out, broken down and beat up and not thinking I was going to be able to get done.

Brent: That was a really interesting moment in time because for those of you that haven’t experienced a big event like that, you’re just seeing so many people in different states of how their well-being is. Some people just hustle right through at mile 40 and they’re just running along, not a big deal. Some people come in and that’s their last stop and they call it a race there. So you’re getting so many different versions of people. When you came in, we could see that you were in the dark side, like you were physically tapped out, and you were in tears. And we always know Rob is like this really tough human being that can suffer through anything. And there were question marks, but we knew our role. And our role was A, we had to get you the food and we had to change out, you know, shoes and socks and things like that. But it was actually, let’s put the most positive spin on anything Rob says. Rob says, my foot hurts, I say, well, how’s the other foot feel? Rob says, I can’t eat anything. Well, just eat that Snickers, whatever it might be, just to get him to think differently. And I can remember when you and I are walking out of that aid station, I put my arm around your shoulder and I just said, Rob, you’ve got this. Like you have it. And you’re like, I don’t think I can do it. And I said, that’s BS. You know, that is total BS. You’ve got this. But my foot hurts, my ankle hurts, my knee hurts, my hip hurts. I said, everything hurts, of course. But you’ve got this. Then you’ve got this really nasty climb, and it’s a really difficult section. You got through that. And then as you’re coming back to mile 60, it’s at the exact same point that we’re meeting you. And all of a sudden you called Tara on the phone. I’m like, hey, I’ll be there in a couple minutes. All cheery. You came in, you’re happy, and you’re just doing it. Like you’re just, let’s go. And then that was a cool part because at mile 60, then you can have a pacer with you. And you were so excited for that. So one of our friends went with you for mile 60 for the next, I think, 10 or 15 miles. And it was just really cool. And it was that self-transformation that took place. And I’m really glad that you got to experience that moment in time with that individual that was cheering everybody on and said, you can only control the next step that you’re going to take. You can’t worry about the past, you can’t predict the future, but it’s the next step. And when I think about people’s own version of Epic, it’s the same exact thing. If you know that you want to do like a really challenging trip per se, is sometimes the step as simple as calling the travel agent, calling that friend and saying, hey, do you want to do this with me? I want to go on this trip and I want to go on this really unique adventure. Would you be up for it? And that friend might say, yes, that’s your next step. And so those are the things that are part of Epic that I think are really important. How do you look back at that event in particular, Rob? And let’s say we got to see you get through the last 40 miles, you made it through, we all crossed the finish line with you, which was an amazing experience. And it’s really cool. The last like one to two miles, family and friends all join all the athletes and you kind of walk the rest of the way, you jog the rest of the way with your whole crew, and it’s so fun, super emotional. You cross the finish line, and then it’s like this big moment of just like, oh my gosh, I just ran a hundred miles. But now looking back at that event, Rob, what did that do for you as an individual? What growth did you get from doing something so epic like that? We know that’s on the physical side, but I think it was probably more growth mentally. How do you look back at that? And what are some of the things you can share about that experience and the growth you gained from it?

Rob: So, as I mentioned, up until that race, it was a little bit about the accomplishment. Look what I can do, look what I did. I was able to do something that most people can’t do. And it was that event, having that mental breakdown and being in that really dark place, Brent, and the transformation that happened after that, that I’ve carried forward both in my business life and personal life. And it was, you know, things can change pretty dramatically from being on the highest high and to the lowest low. And that can happen in business, that can happen with a company, that can happen with a relationship. All of those things can happen and you don’t have as much control as you think. And I’m a control freak. I thought I had it all figured out. It was all in that binder that I gave you. Everybody told me that, you know, once you start the race, your plan goes out the window because who knows what’s going to happen. I think that’s a lot of what life is, right? I’ve tried to control a lot of pieces of my life, and you can’t. You can’t control those pieces of your life. I was in an incredibly dark spot when I left that aid station, not thinking I was going to be able to finish. And quite honestly, kind of hoping I was going to get pulled off the course. That it wasn’t me that quit. It was I didn’t make it to the next spot in time. And I was, sounds bad, but I was a little hopeful that was the case. Because the pain would actually end. I was in that much pain. And what I didn’t know about doing events like this is those go in ebbs and flows too. The pain that you have now is not the pain you’re going to have in 20 minutes from now or 20 miles from now. And that’s the same in life, I think, too, is that the things we’re dealing with today are not the things we’re going to be dealing with in the next five, 10, or 15 years. They’re going to change and they’re going to adjust no matter how much we try to control it. And all we can control is that next step forward. And that’s been the biggest shift for me as doing these events. It’s become more about what I can learn about myself. What can I learn? Not just what am I capable of doing, but what am I going to be able to learn for myself through this challenge? And I’m glad you brought up there’s different versions of epics that everybody could have because it’s not just go and run a hundred miles or do a big Ironman or a 250-mile race. A friend of mine’s epic is to walk across the country of England and sleep in hotels along the way. That’s her version of an epic. And that is such a cool event. Neat to see what she might learn about herself in doing that type of an event too.

Brent: I see it a lot in midlife where, you know, the people that I follow on Substack because we know we’re active on Substack, and I follow a lot of other really creative people that are challenging themselves. And a version of Epic is starting a new business, writing a book, doing something that’s challenging, launching a podcast. I mean, that’s a version of our Epic right now. This is something I’ve never done. But why do we talk about this at this stage of life is a lot of times in the earlier stages of, let’s say, your career, you’re taking on epic projects or epic responsibilities, or, you know, somebody’s giving you that really challenging role and you have to go all in and then you see it on the other side and you grew from it. I think for me, for a big portion of my career, I’ve launched several businesses. Each one of them has its own epic DNA to them because there’s moments in time when I look at it on the onset, I’m like, there’s no way that this is going to be successful, but I’m going to try it anyways. And then you keep working at it, you keep working at it. And this could be over a couple of years, and all of a sudden you’re like, wow, this is turning into something. That was definitely for me was a version of Epic because I tried something new that I just didn’t know how to do that. You see it so much with people at this stage of life. You see a lot of people that want to go adventure on the travel side. I’m glad you bring that up, a friend of yours that wants to travel across England and really see by foot. That’s a really cool version of Epic. I’ve been doing some unique travel in the last couple of years because fly fishing is something that I really enjoy doing. And I’m going to these locations that are really challenging. And it’s a different experience for me. And I grow every single time I do it. And that’s something that is our challenge back to our listeners is like when you think of Epic in this stage of life, are you taking on something that will challenge you? Or are you stuck in the status quo? And we’re not saying these big events are the way to go. Sometimes they are. If you go out to some of these events, you’ll see a lot of people in their mid-50s doing these events because they got to a point where like, I want to give back to my body. I want to challenge my body. But before we get into that stage, maybe there’s a way that you can describe if you go back several years. I think there’s a stage of life when you do something hard because it looks really impressive on paper. And then you get to talk to people about it. I know I’m guilty of that. How do you think about that, Rob? Maybe things that you did 20 years ago and what’s the difference in your own life that really drives you today to do it versus maybe 20 years ago when it was a, you know, a great conversation to have with some friends about something big that you did because it’s almost like you’re bragging.

Rob: Early on, it was about the accomplishment. It was look what I was able to do. So it started as the I wonder if I could do that. And then look what I did and how cool it was. And I’m not the person of type that would brag, but I loved it when people would ask about it and I got a chance to talk about it. So it’s a kind of a weird dynamic. I’m not going to bring it up into conversation, but it usually does. And I get a chance to talk about how cool it was that I did something. And from a physical standpoint, but even on the travel standpoint, Brent, it was that the learnings from a travel standpoint and pushing beyond comfort zone, pushing beyond my boundaries. I started having learnings doing those things earlier than I did on some of these physical activities. So, you know, a marathon, hey, look, I did a marathon. I have a marathon finisher medal. I did an Ironman. I have a medal from doing that thing. But when I traveled, I had a lot more, I would say, learnings and personal learnings that I was able to transfer to other areas of my life. That happened a little quicker for me for some reason. So the travel was I went to this really cool far-off destination, but something happened while I was there that caused me to think different about my world and my life. And I’ve been to the base camp of Mount Everest, and probably the biggest opportunity there. That was a big epic vacation that my wife and I went on was a hiking trip. And our guide would only tell us what the itinerary was for that single day. That was it. He wouldn’t tell us more than that. And I’m an achiever personality, I’m a type A personality. I want to know the itinerary for the entire event. I want to know how to pace myself. I want to know exactly what we’re going to do. And he wouldn’t share that with us. And he said, we’re going to take it day by day and we’re going to focus on just doing today. We’ll worry about tomorrow, tomorrow. And that happened on a big trip. And again, a similar message to what I got from Leadville. I wish I’d learned that completely when I did that hike. It went from my life has moved, and I think midlife is the perfect opportunity from that, moves from being a place of accomplishment, because we’ve all had career accomplishments, we’ve all had life accomplishments, more to that place of meaning. And I’m getting so much more out of epics today than I ever have before.

Brent: That’s a beautiful thing when you start to get the meaning side of things. A lot of times in your career, and let’s say you’re in your 30s and 40s, you’re getting a lot of your meaning through your work accomplishments. And maybe you’re starting to travel because you’ve got some disposable income that might allow you to do that. And you’re seeing things and you’re taking yourself to places that you normally wouldn’t go. So that’s part of growth. But then you get to this stage of life where you can start to see things, understand and be curious about it. But also, as your example at base camp where you’re in the hands of somebody else and you’re learning a different side of trust versus a controlling side as I need to know this. When do I finish this? How do I do it? Sometimes you have to sit back and just let the guide take over and just trust that guide. It’s hard to do. I’ve done that on several of my fishing trips where I’m in a really remote location. And I’m like, if this doesn’t work out, I don’t know what’s going to happen to me. But then you look over your guide, that’s that individual’s job, and they’re there and they’re very proud of that. And the moment you try to take over, you’re kind of infringing on their responsibilities. And it’s a fascinating experience, but there’s a lot of trust that comes with that.

Rob: You paid the guide for that level of experience they’re bringing to the table. You might as well trust them. Absolutely. As you talked about your travels, what are some of the things you’ve learned in traveling and some of the events you’ve done? What were some of those life-changing learnings that you had in doing some of those things?

Brent: Travel’s a really fun one because I had a job at one point in time where I worked across several different continents. And I was going to Ghana and I was going to Indonesia, Peru, Australia. So all these different places. And one of the things that I got so much out of it was embracing different cultures. And I was a senior leader, so I would always set up things a lot of times in these locations that we go work at a school, for instance, in Ghana, and you spend a day helping out at that school, whether you’re painting, whether you’re teaching, you’re just doing things with kids. I got more out of that than anything else. And you’re just seeing how other people live their life, what makes them smile, what makes them happy. And I found that I just enjoy that side of the experience. It takes me to places that I’m certainly uncomfortable with, but I like that feeling of being comfortable, being uncomfortable, because that’s part of growth for me. And then it just gives me a drive to go see other places in the world. And I’ve been fortunate. I did a lot of traveling for my work for a number of years. But then as I got to midlife, I’ve started to take that into my fun side of things. So I take a fly fishing rod wherever I go on some of these locations, and I’m just doing some of the same things, and I’m just seeing different parts of the world and how do they operate. And it’s just curious. And you just see beauty in so many different places and people. And so that’s fun. I’ve had to learn the nutrition thing’s always a little tricky for me because I’m somewhat particular on, you know, eating a plant-based diet if I can. But that goes out the window when you go to some of these locations. I have a funny story. I went to this fly fishing destination in Bahamas and I filled out the form as I was going there. They asked any dietary restrictions, and I said, plant-based. So I get there first night, the person says, so you just don’t eat chicken, right?

Rob: That’s a version of plant-based. Sure.

Brent: And I just said, yeah, I don’t eat chicken. So the rest of the week I’m having fish, I’m having pork, I’m having beef. Because I just knew like this was so out of their own kind of routine that I just had to go with the flow. It just was so strange to me because at home, that’s pretty easy to accomplish. You know, when you go in the United States as an example, but you go to some of these countries and then you go to a far-off destination like Christmas Island, which is in between Honolulu and Fiji. You eat what they put in front of you. That’s it. If it’s rice and potatoes, you eat rice and potatoes. If it’s some sort of seafood, you eat seafood because that’s all they have. Like there’s nothing beyond that. You don’t have a menu to pull from. So the menu is what’s on the plate that night. Same thing when you were saying, you know, with your guide, you just have to wake up. What are you going to have for breakfast is what they give you that day for breakfast. And if you ask them what’s for breakfast tomorrow, they will look at you like, I have no idea. It’s basically a combination of what you guys didn’t eat tonight and a combination of what we were thinking, but it will all come together early in the morning and you’ll have food on your plate. So that’s part of this learning experience that I find with travel. That’s super fun. But there’s a vulnerable side of that for me because I just don’t want to get sick. That’s the big thing. But there’s ways that you navigate it, and there’s food that you choose not to eat and choose to eat, and things that you can prepare for. But I’ve learned the hard way for sure. You know, we’ve all gotten sick sometimes in these destinations we go to because we push the envelope a little bit on what we’re going to try. And then you’re like, huh, that might not end well. And it may not. And I’ve been in that situation. But all of it for me, Rob, is around that growth that comes with traveling, doing epic things. And one of the things that I want to talk about is this super growth story that you experienced this time last year, and you decided to take on an event that I actually never heard of outside of learning through you, which was called the Cocodona 250. And you decided to take on this foot race. It’s hiking, running, jogging, crawling, whatever you can do to navigate. I think it’s a total of 256 miles, the version that you did or the race course that year. And you have five days to complete it. You complete it in four days. You’ve got about 40,000 vertical feet of climbing built in over that 256 miles, and you have a support crew. So you’ve got pacers throughout it, you’ve got a crew chief that’s really managing nutrition and clothing, and it’s a big group of people that are helping you through this. So you chose to take that on as you were going into the same year that you turned 50. As we dive into this, because I was a big part of this, I was one of your pacers, so I’m super grateful that you tapped me on the shoulder to say, could you pace a portion of this? And I loved every bit of it. But to jump into this part of the conversation, why was that the right challenge for you, that right type of epic at that point in your life? And did it feel like you were able to accomplish what you wanted to accomplish to do something of that magnitude?

Rob: So, this is a child that was birthed during COVID, and it was a seed that was planted while I was training for Leadville. And so, to give a little more backstory on it, Brent, then I’ll come back and answer your question as to why. While I was training for Leadville, I was watching all sorts of running YouTube videos, and Cocodona 250 popped up as the inaugural year of Cocodona, and they did a YouTube story on it. And so I was down the rabbit hole of ultra endurance and algorithm on YouTube of all the things running and long distance running, and this video popped up. I’m like, I’m training for a hundred mile race, and these people are running 250 miles? That’s dumb. Who would ever want to run that far? I’m struggling just getting ready to run 100 miles. And I turned it off, watched about half of it, stopped it. It was hot. I’m like, who would want to run in the desert in May at that, of all things, let alone 250 miles? But unfortunately, it planted a seed like I had planted for me with Leadville the first time, which a friend of mine doing it, Justin doing it, and me saying, I wonder if I could go and do something like that. And it planted that seed in the back of my mind, and I let it sit there and linger. And so for me, 2025, I turned 50 that year. The date of Cocodona starting, it was a 250-mile race. The date was May 5th. So 5-5, 2025, 250 miles, the year I’m turning 50. So it was kind of something neat about the numbers of two and five and things like that, all happening around the same time, both my age and the dates of Cocodona. I was leaving work and I knew I was going to need to have something to transition to. Given my personality and the achiever type of personality that I have, if I just left without anything on the radar, whether it be a business venture or anything like that, a physical activity, a big emotional trip that I had to prepare for, I was going to go stir crazy and drive my wife crazy, just being at home watching Netflix all the time. And so it hit the moment of I’m going to be leaving work at something to go and train for, something to put my energy into, something to leave the house and do during the day. So I wouldn’t be sitting in front of my computer like I would be from a work standpoint. And I wouldn’t be sitting on the couch with my wife. What are we going to do today? What are we going to do? Let’s go do something. And so all of those things kind of happened all at once that prompted me to want to go sign up for it, which I did and got into the race. I didn’t sign up knowing what would come. I signed up for the challenge and for the experience, knowing that something would likely come out of it. I didn’t know what it would be, but I knew that there would be an experience that I would leave with. And I was looking forward to that experience. The challenge of pushing myself, but the experience of what might I learn about myself along the way.

Brent: So to give people a sense of this course, it starts outside of Phoenix for the most part in May. So it has the ability to be 100 degree temperature, but it also has the ability to be exact opposite. You experienced the exact opposite because it was raining, it was snowing, it was muddy, it was hot, it was cold, it was at all the different elements. And from my own personal experience, is the first time that we ran together was at about 100 miles. We crossed the 100-mile mark together, and it rained the entire time for that leg of maybe 13 to 15 miles that we did together. And one of the most interesting things that took place for you and I on that leg is it was raining so hard. We got to a section that we were underneath these massive power lines, and the rain hitting the power lines above us, and it’s those big industrial ones on those big steel structures. So there’s lightning and thunder in the distance, it’s pouring rain on us, and what it sounded like is the rain hitting the power line sounded like a roaring river. And we kept looking around and asking ourselves, like, what is that noise? Like, is there a river nearby? We’re in the middle of the desert. There’s no river. We figured it out at one point in time where we’re like, we probably should just hightail. We got lightning coming our way or below these power lines, and we got to get out from this version of a river. And then we climbed up in these hills and we got to the next kind of big aid station, and it was dark at night, and, you know, it was really muddy, and it was kind of strange conditions. But then you went off, and then we saw you down at the next leg. I think I got to sleep for a couple hours, and then I got to pick up some time with you again. But I have to explain this experience that I had with you because I don’t remember exactly how many miles it was into it, but you had your van where all your gear was, and that was a moment in time that your mom and dad joined the actual kind of crew to cheer you on. So your mom and dad were at that point in time, and I think it was the first time that any of us saw your mom and dad. And then we had some other friends that were there as well, and so everybody was just looking at you in the van, and you were just looking out with this blank stare, like so confused of all these people. And so we get you going, and you and I start on the trail, and we’re probably a mile in, and you just look at me and you go, who were all those people? I said, well, Rob, that was your mom, that was your dad, your wife. You knew Tara, of course, because she was there. And if you didn’t know that, that would have been real, real trouble. But you’re like, there’s other people there. I’m like, well, some other friends that you know really well. And you’re like, wow, gosh, I just didn’t recognize anybody. And you were in planet La La Land. Like you were out there, and you just were just so fascinated by that. Really? That was my mom and dad? Yeah. Then about, I don’t know, 10 or 15 minutes later, you’re like, oh yeah, that was my mom and dad. And everything kind of came together for you. But it took you a solid 15 to 20 minutes to process the magnitude of about 10 or 12 people kind of just staring at you for about 10 minutes. And it was just a strange experience.

Rob: To explain what that experience is like, and I think you’ve had this, Brent, in your business travels where you wake up in the middle of the night, you don’t know where you’re at, right? There’s a red light in the ceiling. It’s not the one in your bedroom. Like, which city am I in? Where am I at? That groggy feeling. And it takes you a couple of minutes, like, oh, wait, I’m at the Hilton Hotel in whatever city it is, and then you fall back asleep. That’s what it was like for an extended period of time. That’s maybe the best way of describing it. So at this point, I’m a hundred and thirty, hundred and forty miles into this race. I think I’d slept for three hours in three days, total of three hours in three days, and I just got done with a nap. And so right after that nap, I was woken up, I was eating. I recognized people, but didn’t know who anybody was. So I never felt worried or at fear. It was just this weird, groggy, like in and out of consciousness type of moment where you’re telling me to eat something. I’m eating, I’m putting on my shoes and socks, I’m just doing what everybody told me to do before you and I went and go for a run. And it wasn’t until I think blood started flowing that actually my brain started functioning a little bit better. I’m like, oh yeah, now I’m kind of with it again.

Brent: You were actually really coherent and all of these things that took place, like for that period of time, because we had a stretch of another 10 to 15 miles together. So I’m going to fast forward because there was something that took place a little bit later in the race. And what I want to describe here is this is a way for Rob to share everybody has their own version of Epic, but also what comes from that version of Epic and the growth that came. Rob’s doing the race. He and I were just about to start. You went overnight by yourself. There was a section of the trail that I think they had spotted owls or some sort of endangered species that you couldn’t have a pacer. So you’re by yourself for I think 16 miles, something like that, maybe 20. And then you come rolling into this aid station. We’re like, where is he? And he’s been kind of like, we see, because you have a beacon and we see you, and we’re like, he’s got to be close, but he stopped. And we’re like, where is he? So he comes rolling into the aid station drinking a Red Bull. And we’re like, where did you get that Red Bull? And you’re like, I had 20 bucks and I went to the gas station. It was my money and I spent it. We’re like, okay, and you’re like, huh. And I drank a Red Bull, and you were like this kid, but you clearly had gone through something leading up to that Red Bull. And I think it was like almost a delay of a little bit of spending time with us because once you and I started on the trail again, you were really emotional and you actually asked me to say, let’s just kind of keep it quiet for the next couple of miles. I really don’t want to dive into what I just experienced. So take us through what you just experienced because this is a part of doing big things sometimes, whether it’s traveling, whether it’s starting a business, whether it’s doing something very physically and mentally demanding. Sometimes you have these breakthroughs right in the middle of it, and you didn’t expect it, but it did something really unique. So maybe you can share that experience a bit.

Rob: So, Brent, the Red Bull was my attempt to, at the end of this, try and get my mental faculties back in order because I knew I was going to be around other people pretty quick. So I wanted a shot of sugar and caffeine before I saw people. That’s what’s prompting me to stop and get it. But I’ll take you back to what led up to that. It was in the middle of that 16-mile section, and I’ll give some a little bit more backstory here. So I’m about 170-ish, 175 miles into this 250-mile run. I had a really rough cold night where I was actually running, hiking with one of my pacers, had a nap, and then was off first thing in the morning in the dark, and the sun came up while I was out on this section of 16 miles. I had to do by myself. It was the first time I’d been alone since the very start of the race. It wasn’t very technical. It just there was owls out there that they were trying to protect by not having too much noise in the vicinity. And having been on this section for the first time and being by myself, I called a buddy that was on the East Coast time. So I called my friend Andy and just said, hey, I just need to talk to somebody. It’s early. I know you’re awake at this time. I just always calling East Coast. I could talk to somebody, just keep me moving and keep my head straight and just have a conversation with somebody. And so he and I have a really fun conversation. We’re laughing and joking, and I hang up the phone, and the sun’s coming up. It’s beautiful. I’m outside of Flagstaff, big tall trees, temperatures great. And I get another call from somebody else. His wife actually calls me, Cindy calls me, and I couldn’t answer the phone. Just a flood of emotions comes through my body all at once. And so I didn’t answer the phone. And I cried, ugly cried. I’m getting emotional now just talking about it, but I ugly cried for the next four and a half hours. I’m hyperventilating, I’m by myself in the woods. It’s beautiful outside. And what I was crying from was two things were happening to me at once. Is one is I was, I couldn’t believe how much support I was getting from other people. And the people, unexpected support I was getting from other people, from the people that came down to Arizona to support me in person. My parents drove down to support me. You came down, I had a bunch of close friends that were giving up a week to spend time and help me accomplish a big goal. So the outpouring of love and support that I didn’t think I deserved kind of just flushed through my body all at once. And the change that happened for me there was I’d been doing a lot of these events to prove to myself I was good enough. I’ve been that way for a long time. It’s like, can you prove that you’re good enough to go do something like this? And the change that happened over that period was I am good enough. I’m a good enough friend that people will come support me to do this stuff. I have a part in other people’s lives that want to be part of mine. And I don’t know that I would have gotten it without putting myself in that situation. It’s something I’ve struggled with for a long time, is am I good enough? I’ve had a serious imposter syndrome for a long time. And putting myself in that place gave me the breakthrough moment to say, I am good enough. These people wouldn’t be down here. They wouldn’t be sending me text messages and videos if I wasn’t, because they have busy lives, they have things that are going on. I’m getting messages at two o’clock in the morning from people that woke up to send me something, or they sent it delayed, and they were thoughtful around that. And that moment has shaped a lot of things that have happened around me since. And so that’s coming into that section where I was running with you. I’m emotional today because of that breakthrough moment, how it made me feel. I didn’t want to be around other people, having a breakdown moment in front of other people that had come to actually be there to support me. And so I needed that quiet space. I needed the retreat a little bit longer because I don’t know that I would have been able to continue on the race very far if I had more of a breakdown with other people around me at that time.

Brent: Well, thank you for sharing that. I mean, we knew that something transformational took place, or at least I did, because you and I had the next 20 miles together. So we were together for like seven or eight hours, and we spent, I don’t know, maybe twenty minutes where you’re just pretty quiet. And I just knew that there was a moment in time that you just needed to collect yourself. And part of doing epic things, your own version of epic is finding that breakthrough. And we all go through transformations. And I think the reality that sets out and sets up often in midlife is because you’re going through so many different transformations where you might get your validation from something that you do at work. You might be getting validation through your kids because they’re starting to grow up and they’re making decisions and you’re starting to see them blossom. You may get validation through just different means. But what you just described is you got your own personal version of validation that you are enough and that you got to witness other people coming together for you. But I think it was also like, you know, it’s unfortunate that you had to torture yourself for three days to get to that point.

Rob: I don’t recommend people go and do that to have that break. Therapy is a lot easier.

Brent: Yeah. But you actually had this moment where you just saw your life differently. And I can tell you, Rob, that when you came out of Cocodona, you were a different person because you started to shift from trying to do so much on your own, you started to explore things with others as well and making sure that you’re just not going to go do something big by yourself because you did that. And you realize I can do that, but you’re also encouraging other people to do things that are challenging. And you’re not just encouraging people to go do big, long running races or bike rides. It’s travel, it’s experience, it’s starting a business, whatever it might be. And you saw that what it did for you and super proud of you for sharing that part of the journey because we knew there was something big that took place. And sometimes it’s just the circumstances were perfectly set up. And here we’re laughing at you when you came in and you didn’t share with anybody of like what you just went through. But I get it. Like you needed that Red Bull to give you that jolt of energy just to be like, I got to put myself together here. So you and I crossed at that point in time. We then crossed the 200 miles together. And I could not believe how coherent you were, and you had only slept, I think at that point in time, around five or six hours total, you know, five hours, let’s say, over three and a half days. I was like, what is this superhero doing? So super cool. But thanks for sharing that. It’s a big part of doing big things.

Rob: What have some of your experiences been doing some of these big things, Brent? I know you and I did rim to rim to rim together as just a training run for me, but it was one of your big epics that you wanted to go and accomplish with our friend Jeff. What were some of the things you took away from that? Because I think epics give everybody something different. What’d you take away from rim to rim to rim?

Brent: I just have to laugh really quick. You just said that was a training run for you. So let me describe what a training run for Rob is and what a challenge it is for Brent. So the rim to rim to rim, for those that aren’t familiar with it, it’s in the Grand Canyon, and that’s down in Arizona. We decided to start on the south rim, and then you cross and traverse. You go down quite a bit in elevation, then you go up to the north rim, and then you come back and do it in reverse. So it took us a total of 18 hours to complete it, and it was about 48 miles, I think, for us to do it. So we did it with our other good friend Jeff. We had a good time doing it. It was hard. But here was my need to do something like that and why I chose to do it at the point I chose to do it. I just left my last company, you know, six months prior. I needed something to do, but I was also navigating a really tough time in life, which was my first child was going off to college. So I was making some decisions at that point in time, and I knew that intellectually I can dive into launching my next business. That was something that I was familiar with, but I knew that that was not the right thing for me to do at that point in time. So I needed something that had a buildup to it, had a lot of kind of commitment to it, was something I’d never done. I’d run a few marathons, I’d done a bunch of triathlons when I was younger, but this was different because of the rigor associated with it, the planning associated with, and I got to do it with you and Jeff, and it was so fun. But I needed to navigate those breakthroughs because I was challenged at the time, and I highlighted this in one of our previous podcasts early on, was I was dealing with a lot of loneliness and depression at the time because I went from this very stimulated job and work that I was involved in to not having that. And so I was navigating loneliness, and one thing that training did for me, it gave me a lot of space in the outdoors to collect myself. I never felt necessarily alone in the outdoors, but I was navigating what loneliness meant to me in the outdoors, which gave me a lot of clarity. So my breakthrough for that was not only the breakthrough of you can raise the bar of what I was capable of doing, because I’d never done anything for 18 hours. I mean, I’ve done marathons and those might take me four hours or something like that, or a triathlon, maybe three or four hours. But this was 18 hours. The training was rigorous going into it because I knew it was very challenging. People often don’t make it through the whole thing because it’s very hard to do. It was something I needed to do to take my mind off all the other things that are going in my life. And it was so important for me. And I had a moment in time while I was training that I just really had this beautiful breakthrough about what loneliness meant to me and what could I do to overcome that. So that was important for me, and also just raising the bar. And I loved the community part of it. Like I got to do some cool things, like some of our training runs. We did this beautiful training run near Aspen, Colorado, that was like a 30-mile loop. It was so hard, but it was so fun. I did a lot of cool training runs in my own community, and so that was a lot of fun, but it actually set the stage. And I’m curious how you think about this, Rob, is it set the stage for some of the things that I want to do in the future? And not just doing these crazy athletic events, but it’s something that I enjoy so much of being outside. And how can I challenge myself to be outside and really challenge myself to learn and grow? So I got a lot of growth from it, but how do you look at those kind of things into the future? Because, you know, we can always sign up for these big events and torture ourselves, but these epic experiences, they’ve taught you something. How do you look at them for maybe the next five or 10 years?

Rob: So a couple of answers on that, Brent. The thing that I was chasing is gone in doing a lot of these events. And it disappeared during Cocodona. So I don’t know what’s going to come. I know something will, but I don’t know what it is. And so the thing that I was chasing was validation. And I don’t feel like I need that validation anymore. So that breakthrough moment is going to create some unknown in the next event that I go and do. The thing about doing these events with community has become a bigger and bigger part of it for me. And that started during training for Leadville. Everything up until that point had been solo endeavors, and I could go do it by myself and for myself. Leadville, the run, was something I couldn’t do by myself. Cocodona was definitely something people do it by themselves. I don’t know how they could do that. I don’t think I ever could do it by myself. I needed people around me to help me with that. And so I’m glad you brought up community because the part of the community also brings up fun stories that happen during events. You brought up my out-of-mind experience that happened during the event. There’s a lot of fun things that happen during outings like this, like getting stung by a scorpion on the rim to rim to rim, which happened to me. And you and Jeff laughed about that and what happens when you take a Benadryl in the middle of the day. It’s not a good thing, right? So for me, it’s become more about who else can I bring along on this journey? Let them have that experience. And the outcome of it has been getting you to do these events, other close friends to do these events. And you shared it, is I’ve changed your perspective a little bit already. And where you went out and did a 48-mile run, it’s fun to hear you say, oh, I’m only going to do a half marathon. And a couple of years ago, a half marathon would have been a big event for you. A half marathon is only something that I’m going to go into. Yeah, it’s only a half marathon. It’s because your boundaries have changed. Your what’s possible has changed. What you’re able to suffer through and endure has changed. What you’ve experienced has changed. And that has brought me so much joy in what I’m doing. A lot more of it has become more about the community experience I get to have and the experience I get to take other people through now.

Brent: The way you describe that, and I want to just reiterate the community aspect because every time you do an event like this, there’s this really strong community that’s involved in it. And you and I have done some marathons together, some half marathons together. We’ve done some of these events since we even did the rim to rim to rim. And you go out there and it’s people that are living their life in a certain way. But what it does for me also is it really challenges me on my diet, it challenges me on my exercise routines. And it gets me into this rhythm that I’m living healthier. And I like that. But I also like the community aspect. I mean, I tried this Xterra Triathlon last summer as an example. And I never knew that community was so strong of people that like to do that. And they travel the world to go do these Xterra races, and it’s really cool. These destinations that they go to, and you could just see it’s friends getting together. And I find that some of these things, you can find these different communities that are doing things that you may be interested in. If you’re interested in writing a book, go out to Substack. There’s crazy awesome communities on Substack that are about writing about a specific topic, and you can start to do it because, you know, if we haven’t shared it enough, when you decide to change your work, your community will change because you no longer have what we like to call deal friends and real friends. Your deal friends start to slip away because those are your work friends and they may be working, they may often be doing something different. So when you find your epic, it’s amazing what you can find in community. And I just encourage people to take on that challenge. I think you’re at the right stage of life to take on something that might be challenging for you. And you never know, you might find Rob and I on that same exact trail or that same event. So to close things out, Rob, one of the things that we always like to do is express gratitude. And I think you’ve tapped me on the shoulder to say, hey, can I actually take this one this week? So I’ll let you close it out with a gratitude share.

Rob: I’ll jump at the gratitude share in a minute, but again, I want to come back and reiterate something we talked about, whereas Brent and I discussed these big physical activities and events. Everybody’s epic is different. It could be a walking activity, it could be travel. I’ve had a friend share with me that they went on a rafting trip through the Grand Canyon for 10 days. And the epic was having to go slow and take time and relax and actually breathe and be present. That was difficult for them. That was an epic and a learning moment. So epics can happen any place, anytime, anywhere. And you get to define what that epic is for you that’s going to push your boundary and help you grow. The gratitude that I have, Brent, is a number fold. One, it’s for this audience that is listening to my story and me hopefully be coherent as I’m crying talking. I wasn’t ugly crying like I was during Cocodona. Thank you for listening today. That’s one of my gratitudes. The other big gratitude I have, Brent, is one to you. And one is just helping me share this story. I didn’t know if I ever would or could. And this environment today has helped me figure out a way to share this story. I haven’t even shared this with Tara. And so she’s going to hear it and she’s out for a walk listening to this podcast, but she’ll hear it there. I have a gratitude for her and thanking her and the support of me doing all these crazy, stupid activities and helping support me, not only support me do it, but encourage me to go and do it. Specific to Cocodona, I want to thank the crew that was there in Cocodona. So you mentioned my parents, my good friend Jeff, his son Hunter, my friend Scott, that all came down, were in person. Hunter’s fiancé now, Amelia, was there supporting me in person, really carrying me through that race, feeding me, shoving food in my mouth, changing my socks and shoes, which is disgusting work to go and do at that point in the race. So thank you for all those people. And lastly, and I can’t put names to this list, Brent, because it’s too large and I’m going to forget a lot of people. But you all know who you are if you’re listening to the podcast. Thank you for all those people that helped me during that activity and that event. You’re the reason why I had the breakthrough moment. The text messages, the video messages, the calls that I got, the great thoughts, the prayers that people were having for me during that time. I wouldn’t have been able to do something like that without you. And it wasn’t about finishing Cocodona. I wouldn’t have had that breakthrough moment that I really needed to have at this point in my life without all of you involved in that process. So that’s my gratitude today is thanking that group, which is a large group of people. So thank you.

Lena: That’s it for this episode of Midlife Circus. Visit midlifecircus.fm for show notes, transcripts, and all the latest happenings. And be sure to join us in the Midlife Circus community on Substack. Follow Midlife Circus on Apple Podcasts, YouTube, and wherever you get your podcasts, so you never miss your next great act. Quick reminder, the opinions and stories shared here are personal reflections, not professional advice. This show is for entertainment and inspiration only. Thanks for listening, and we’ll see you under the big top next time. Midlife Circus is a Burning Matches Media production.